War and Geopolitics

Interview with Alexander Dugin on the Golovanov Time show

Roman Golovanov: Alexander Gelievich Dugin is with us, a great Russian thinker and philosopher. Alexander Gelievich, I greet you. Thank you for finding time for our broadcast.

Alexander Dugin: Good evening.

G: We meet again – and again we find ourselves in conditions when a terrorist attack has happened (although our broadcast was planned in advance) against an important person – thinker, writer, ideologist Zakhar Prilepin. He went to war and withdrew from media activity (he didn’t even really maintain his Telegram channel), he only found time for the ‘Russian Lessons’ programme – they recorded episodes with a team in the Lugansk library. Mainly, however, he was occupied with the war. And they caught him right at home, in a village in the Nizhny Novgorod region. They installed two anti-tank mines on the way home. Only one worked because the second one simply was not turned on. The terrorist, who was hiding in the bushes, specifically obtained Russian citizenship, specifically came to eliminate Prilepin and very cold-bloodedly told investigators about it during the interrogation. If he had activated the second mine and it had detonated, as Prilepin himself wrote, he would have died. It is a great miracle that he survived this attack, but a very close person to him died – Sanka.

Alexander Gelievich, I don’t even know how to ask you about this – because the events are becoming truly insane…

D: Why insane? In my view, we are talking about war. A war in which we are participating. A war that, in principle, became inevitable after the collapse of the USSR because when our unified power, the heir to the Russian Empire, disintegrated intos parts, it became clear that these parts could not be neutral. Because what diminishes the civilization of Land, Heartland, Eurasia, Russia – that increases in our enemies, the Atlanticists.

Another thing is that the transition to the complete dominance of our geopolitical opponents, who remained such all these years – perhaps even centuries, was just a matter of time. And we could not notice this, like in the 1990s, or half-notice, like in the 2000s. But they were enemies.

And the question ‘when will they demand complete loyalty from the chimeric semi-states that arose from the ruins of Russia’ was just a matter of time. And these processes continue in the post-Soviet space. But the most painful, the closest, the most wounded territory is Ukraine. And Brzezinski, one of the theorists of the Atlantic geopolitical advance, emphasised the importance of Ukraine. If it is finally torn away from Russia, then our country cannot be a sovereign pole of a multipolar world. And I think that the question of all other countries of the post-Soviet space is also quite acute. But Ukraine was the most important link in this plan, which inevitably led to war. But not a war with Ukraine, but a war for Ukraine: between the Russian civilization, Eurasia, and our opponents. And in this global war, the enemy, fighting against us, turned out to be active, strong, cruel and goal-oriented. He provoked us into war and, taking advantage of our hesitations and retreats, decided to finish us off.

That’s the point of what’s happening.

Why does it surprise us? That the enemy, among us all who have challenged the West, chooses to eliminate precisely those who are intellectuals, ideologists, thinkers? Those who are the carriers of philosophy, its spirit, like Dasha [Daria Dugina]? Carriers of the imperial spirit, like Malofeev? Carriers of a deep, heartfelt patriotic feeling, like Zakhar Prilepin? Carriers of Orthodox identity, like Vladlen Tatarsky?

Does this surprise us?

But for the West and its terrorist networks, the count is completely different. They are primarily at war with the Russian spirit, our Logos, our thought, our heart. For them, these are the highest priority targets. And they strike them precisely. Moreover, so purposefully that the attacks happen either against my children, close people, friends, brethren, spiritual people. And they hit this target again and again – they strike at one point. From attack to attack, we see an unwavering determination to destroy precisely that genuine, non-custom, deeply organic – emanating from the heart of Russian feeling – Russian idea, the Russian Logos. Their determination is striking. And against this background, of course, the indifference of our state and, in part, our society to the same topic cannot but surprise. We always seem to believe that thinkers are people who are on the periphery. But the enemy sees exactly in us, in thinkers, the main centre of what they are at war with. And they are at war precisely with the Russian Logos, with the Russian spirit. And Zakhar Prilepin was chosen far from randomly. He is one of my closest allies. He came from the National Bolshevik Party, which I once founded with Limonov. He combines ideas of social justice and patriotism, which are the essence of my ideology. He grew up on this, embodied it in literary creativity and in his political position.

They strike at us. The attacks are principally aimed at us, against us. Us – not in a broad sense, like people, the state, a huge number of people supporting Putin. But among these people, the enemy chooses very special ones: Vladlen, Dasha, Malofeev, me, Prilepin. A very narrow circle. We are all united by Tsargrad, where Prilepin ran programmes, where Dasha had her show Our Point of View, where I worked, and Konstantin Malofeev was the organiser and creator of this TV station. Vladlen – our closest friend, of both me and Dasha. It all comes down to a very narrow circle of true patriots. Everyone is a patriot now – I don’t want to offend anyone or diminish their importance. We were just always like this. Before the state took this position. We talked about the need to fight for Novorossiya, when it was absolutely unacceptable for many officials.

The difference between us and other people who I sincerely respect is that we are patriots – always, regardless of anything, and many are situational patriots. Because that’s the direction in politics we have now.

Notice: they act according to a certain logic. They strike at the most important infrastructure objects that are relevant to our economic model. But these are not acts of terror, they are sabotage: strikes against military infrastructure (and even civilian ones of strategic importance) – sabotage against the Crimean bridge, Nord Stream and other significant objects. But the targeted destruction of the Russian spirit – that’s a genuine act of terror, one of symbolic significance. The enemy wants to destroy the bearers of truth.

Understandably, our time is coming. And certainly, if this time comes without us, someone will take our place, but it’s not a given that they will be as dedicated, as genuine and incorruptible as we are.

G: When I said ‘madness’, of course, I was not referring to the idea that the enemies act chaotically. They select their targets consciously. They kill those who bear the stamp of Russianness on their foreheads.

D: I have exactly that impression. I am myself astonished and astounded by the precision of these strikes. There aren’t many of them (by the way, there aren’t many acts of sabotage either). But they are very painful. In my case, the most painful thing that could have been done has happened. And I am amazed, if you will, not by the darkness, but by the clear, precise, Satanic differentiation of spirits in the enemy. It is as if dark spirits are striking at the light ones, ignoring the whole tinsel of endless patriotic heads, by the expressions of which (if you analyse the mimicry, micro-gestures, intonations – something any psychologist who has mastered social technologies can do) it is easy to understand that we are not talking about a sincere person but about a person performing a specific task. They strike at people in whose sincerity there is no doubt. And for our enemies, this is a significant fact, while for us – it is not, we are all patriots now. We are surprised by the choice the enemy makes: why kill these people, why not others? Zakhar went to war – but many of us are at war now. Tens, hundreds of thousands of Russian patriots are fighting on the front. Yes, they risk their lives, they die – but this is the front. Terror attacks, however, take place deep in the rear, in the lost forests of Nizhny Novgorod, where Zakhar Prilepin’s house is located. To get there, to track down the victim, to plant mines, to wait for the car – this requires a great deal of preparation, surveillance, control over phones, a navigator, access to personal correspondence, etc. Zakhar was saved by a miracle. To undertake such complex and laborious preparatory actions for a terrorist attack, one has to be convinced that this particular target deserves to be destroyed. And it is this that we should pay attention to: why does our enemy understand who is truly dangerous to him, while within Russia we ourselves relate to the bearers of the Russian Logos based on the number of followers they have on Telegram or Instagram; we measure them by their frequency of appearances on central channels, etc. That’s not the point!

This war, which we are now approaching a turning point in (possibly very soon), represents something theological, eschatological, greater than a simple conflict. We’ve spoken about this many times, Roman. It seems as though the devil we are fighting against is much more perceptive and intelligent than we are. He understands the goals, tasks, and stakes of this war much more deeply and clearly. We are now fighting against the devil, and gradually the best among us are coming to understand how serious this is: ‘devil’ is no longer just a metaphor, but a real theological truth. In this respect, those who understand the theological nature of this war (like Vladlen) are the main targets of our enemy. While most, even though they are directly at war with the devil, still do not realise the full seriousness of what is happening. They do not yet understand the meaning of the deeds of Archangel Michael and George the Victorious. We are largely guided by simpler (even primitive) feelings. Perhaps, very noble ones – because there is nothing more noble and beautiful than to love and protect one’s homeland. This is wonderful. But now a war is taking place that is even deeper than the one for the homeland. It is a battle for humanity. A battle of good and evil. Perhaps, the final battle. And the closer we come to understanding this, the more openly and fully we, the Russians, talk about it, the more hatred the enemy feels towards us. Indeed, to choose the targets that the enemy chooses, one must be very serious and cruel, cynical, but at the same time very smart and consistent. Knock out this Russian Logos and there will be only an empty form left, only an external body, which will be much easier to defeat (or deceive). That’s what it’s all about. Such a conclusion should have been drawn a long time ago, from 20 August 2022, and to protect those people (especially them) in whom the Russian spirit, the Russian beginning, in a critical situation is concentrated.

G: Usually, very important events remain in the shadows. Now there is a nationwide prayer for victory to the great martyr George the Victorious. Father Andrey Tkachyov comes out with a piece of his relics. And for the next six months, one hundred cities in Russia will welcome the relic, and everyone will be able to worship it. It is important that we have started to pray specifically for victory – not for an abstract peace. Before we prayed for peace – but peace is impossible without victory. Now there is an open prayer for the victory of Russian weapons. The prayer is addressed to George the Victorious – the one who has always been with us.

D: Notice whose initiative this is? From which church does the procession emerge? It is carried out by the same people who could be killed, who stand on the frontline. This is Father Andrey Tkachev, this is the Gymnasium of Basil the Great, built by Konstantin Malofeev. This is the leadership of the ‘Double-Headed Eagle’ movement and the members of the board of the World Russian People’s Council.
I was just talking about the theology of war – and you are absolutely correct in emphasising that it translates into a theology of victory. This war of ours is a theological event. And the fact that we turn to the figure of George the Victorious, whose memory we recently honoured, and to Archangel Michael, and to our Lord Jesus Christ, and to His mother – the Most Holy Virgin, to the saints asking them to grant us victory, means that the philosophical, spiritual, intellectual vanguard of that battle recognises its spiritual dimension. We are beginning to realise how important the heavenly vertical, angelic advocacy, divine participation in our battle of higher powers is in this case. This, indeed, is a fundamental battle. And you are absolutely right: we are not praying for an abstract peace, not for a ceasefire, not simply for the cessation of cruel war – not for that. We, of course, want peace, but much more than that, we want victory. For without victory, as you rightly said, there will simply be no such peace. Because the enemy has decided to completely destroy us: as carriers of the Russian idea, language, culture, Orthodoxy, as a unique civilisation. But our enemies will not be satisfied, even if we retreat and start portraying ourselves as they are – this time no one will believe us for sure. And until they destroy us completely, until our sanctuary, our vertical, our spiritual axis is eradicated – they will not be pacified. This is not even about the state and the people anymore. It’s about, indeed, the highest spiritual beginnings. Our fight is moving from the earthly plane to the heavenly one, and the prayer for victory is a wonderful initiative. It should remind our people what the stakes are in this war and how, and, most importantly, by whom victory is granted. If we do not defeat the enemy ourselves, victory will not be given to us. After all, the holy powers will not help sinners. God does not help those who have turned away from Him, those who are cynical towards Him, those who spit on Him. God helps those who ask Him for help, who love Him, honour Him, pray to Him, those who say about themselves: ‘Not unto us, O Lord, not unto us, but unto Thy name give glory.’ After all, this is not a war of us against our enemies, but it is His war. And we are His servants, His forces, His army. We ask our military commander, Saint Archangel Michael, to strengthen our ranks, to guide us on the right path. And the spiritual dimension of the prayer for victory is part of the most important, primary, and correct actions.

From my point of view, possibly the most important part. Of course, if we do not provide Wagner and everyone else who needs it with shells, ammunition, equipment, etc.; if we do not mobilise our society and our state, industry, mass media, culture – we certainly won’t hold out. But the spiritual dimension is the most important part. Similar to the light of a lamp: it is not large, it’s quiet – but it’s the main thing. If the lamp of faith is burning in us, if we direct our prayers to the heavenly incorporeal powers and to our Lord Jesus Christ, then our struggle takes on a different meaning. Remember, as stated by the prophet Elijah. When he wanted to talk to God, at first a storm arose, thunder roared, an earthquake began, rain, gusts, mountains trembled – and each time it was said that ‘the Lord is not in the storm’, ‘the Lord is not in the gale’, but in the voice of a gentle spirit. In the delicate, almost indistinguishable whisper, which must be heard even through the steel storms of titanic battles. And the public prayer to Saint George is just that, an appeal to this voice of the gentle spirit, which needs to be heard through the roar of guns, through cruise missiles, through the hits on us by HIMARS. Through the squeal, roar, thunder, lightning of our and their advance. But the real victory is given by the delicate voice of God. Because it is enough for God to nod – and everything will be as it should be.

When, in the past, people gathered on the battlefield – these were massive crowds: tens, hundreds of thousands. And only an almost imperceptible movement of the Emperor’s head signified the start of the battle. And this nod of the Emperor decided everything. Without it, all accumulated power was in vain. It lacked the gentle voice of the spirit. And in our prayer to the heavenly forces, we appeal to the nod of the Heavenly King: ‘Nod to us, give us a signal, give us help. Agree with the fact that we are fighting for You – and then we will win. Then an invisible force will enter us, and victory will be ours.’ This prayer for victory, after centuries of materialism and atheism, should return us to ourselves: to our culture, our tradition, our roots. Because this war is also about us ourselves.

We will conquer the external evil when we overcome it within ourselves. It is impossible to defeat the devil being obsessed with materialistic, atheistic, liberal ideas. If we are part of the Western world, we have lost. We can win only as an independent civilisation – and only in this case will we win. For this, we need to cleanse ourselves. And God’s help in this cleansing is a fundamental and key event. It may seem superfluous to many, or as a simple tribute to formalities. No. This, in fact, is the direct and most reliable path to our victory.

G: Vladimir Putin came to the Special Military Operation (SMO) zone, to the command center, and handed the military commanders a pocket icon with the Saviour. And now this icon is being passed from unit to unit. On the screen is that very icon that Putin presented. In front of us is the Easter greeting from the military Archpriest Vyacheslav Bocharov from the Stavropol Diocese and the soldiers of the 49th Army.

Dear Bishop! In these great Easter days, we would like to address all those gathered with an Easter greeting. In relation to the great holiday for us, the 180th anniversary of the establishment of our dearly beloved Stavropol Diocese…

G: Why am I saying this, Alexander Gelyevich. These people, our people, who are now fighting – they understand perfectly well what we are talking about. And those who hold the portable battle icon in their hands, they read and know the things we are talking about, and how important it is. When we talk about terrorist attacks, people may get the wrong impression: Zakhar is associated with the SMO, as are you with Daria, and Vladlen – and all this is part of a war that is happening somewhere else, accidentally shifted here. No, the war is happening here.

D: Of course. We, in this case, are not an appendage to the SMO. Dasha acted as a war correspondent, I – a thinker, philosopher. Of course, I support our military, our leadership. By the way, I was included in the European sanctions for a theological justification of the SMO. Honestly, I didn’t even suspect that I was doing precisely this, until the sanctions. Strictly speaking, I didn’t take consistent steps in this direction before the sanctions – but they themselves made me, forced me to take it up. Again, the enemy thinks faster than we do. After all, they don’t just strike at military figures. They struck at Zakhar not as a militiaman, but wanted to kill him as a writer, intellectual, ideologue. The same is true for Malofeev and Vladlen. Dasha and I were even further away from the concrete reality of the front. But they choose targets according to the profile of spiritual orientation. The enemies, in fact, understand that this is a spiritual war, and they distinguish these spirits.

The fact that the president presented an icon, this is a very important sign. Yes, he rewarded someone, promoted someone in rank, unblocked supplies of ammunition to someone. But the most important thing that he showed is that the heavenly vertical – which passes through him, as the highest person in the state – descends through him and to the ordinary soldiers. This is a very important moment. This is the consecration of war, transforming it into a holy war. Of course, many note that talking about a holy ‘Special Military Operation’ is a bit strange. We all understand that a war is going on. So let’s drop this euphemism. It began as a special military operation, but it has long since grown into a full-fledged war with the West, a real war; everyone is openly talking about this now. It seems to me that the icon brought by the president to the front, it explains to us what is happening. A holy war is underway, the president himself, the first person in the country, went to the front and brought an icon to the front. He himself is telling us that ‘a holy war is underway, a people’s war is underway, the state and the people are now united, I am with you, soldiers, warriors, wives, mothers, fathers, who have lost their children, I am fully with you, I am one of you’. And the state and the people in this holy war are united and blessed with the presence of the spirit and holy icons. This is a very important sign, a sign of deep rootedness in the spirit of the events in which we are participating.

Another thing is, it seems to me, that the ‘theology of war’ that we’re discussing today should be more fully and substantively represented in our society. I think that many things, many programmes, many facial expressions even and many formulations of our press, which have long become familiar, are completely incompatible with the culture of the country and society, which are in the state of this holy war. We should adapt our society to the theological criteria of holy war and do this immediately. The attempt to carry out this special military operation, so as not to touch the people, not to involve the broad masses, did not succeed. This will not pass anymore, it only causes everyone’s bewilderment. It is necessary to rebuild our entire information system, our culture into a war footing – only war songs, only spiritual sermons. Tsargrad, Spas – this, in my opinion, should gradually replace all other television. Some may say that it will be boring, and people will not watch it. I agree, for those who are used to only entertainment, it’s boring. Well, if they don’t want to watch, let them not watch, let them, then, for example, cultivate a garden, go to the front or weave camouflage nets. There is something to do, other than watching meaningless and offensive low-quality TV productions, degrading human dignity. Yes, serious things can be boring and lulling for those people who are not used to them. It’s not scary. They’ll get used to it.

G: Alexander Gelevich, we will now talk about these serious things separately. Here’s what pushes out these serious things, discussions. Whoever wants to watch something serious and important in such a familiar format, here, there is War and the Bible by Boris Korchevnikov – a big series based on the book by Nikolai Serbskiy; there is the film Donbas – The Battle for Truth by Sergey Mikheev and Roman Golovanov, regarding the theology of war, so that people can somehow mark for themselves who are interested in this topic, and it’s very deep and important. We are on the air with a great Russian thinker and philosopher – Alexander Dugin. We will now break for our traditional videos, and then we will return and continue our conversation.

G (after the break): A great Russian philosopher and thinker – Alexander Dugin is on the air, in the studio with Roman Golovanov. Alexander Gelevich, we started talking about the heroes born by the times and very important words were spoken today and a very important picture: this is Yevgeny Prigozhin opening the Wagner memorial. For those who haven’t seen it, let me show it.

We are at one of the cemeteries of the PMC Wagner, a cemetery near Yekaterinburg. Here are buried those who either were born in Yekaterinburg, or left from here to the front. We are used to WWII monuments, to the mass graves of soldiers, now we should understand that our country has got new heroes and a new branch of our history and therefore this monument, to those who died in the new war, a new twist of our great history. Remember them, mass graves, I think will also appear. Each of these guys died a hero and died bravely. Those who die are always heroes in war. One goes face to face under bullets, and the other does not retreat from enemy artillery and does not leave his trench, so thank you and eternal memory. (Prigozhin)

G: So, these are very important shots, especially on the eve of Victory Day, so that it would sound alive inside, in the head, in the heart, and make it clear that we now have a whole pantheon of new heroes, just take the iconostasis. And the main thing is to handle all this very correctly, because this is treasure, gold. I don’t know what’s more valuable from what has happened. These symbols that have appeared in our Russian history, they are all here. The main thing is that they are now being implemented. Implemented – such an official word, scary, but so that we do not forget about them.

D: You are right. In times of peace, we think the most important and valuable thing is human life, and therefore there are no other higher values. We gradually become too accustomed to this, and when we are entrenched in this belief, we no longer think about the state, we don’t think about duty, we think only about ourselves, about how to make our life more comfortable, how to make it richer, more interesting, more intense, more successful. And when war comes, it reminds us that this is a misconception, that there are higher values, that the state, freedom, Motherland, faith, civilisation, spirit, culture, identity – all these things are more important to us than our life. And this Wagner Heroes Alley and the concise words of Yevgeny Prigozhin – they return us to a completely different metaphysics, to a different understanding of life. It turns out, peace is nothing more than the interval between wars. And now, on the eve of May 9 – it is especially important to remember this. We have actually entered a new war because we have forgotten the previous one. Yes, we celebrate the memory of the Great Victory on May 9, but we no longer understand the meaning of this great event. We have lost this continuous tradition, this connection with the heroes of the previous war. We forgot that there are values higher than life, and therefore today’s sacred war, in which we participate, reminds us of this; in the most brutal way it returns us to a different value system, which we have forgotten, thrown away and betrayed. Because the word ‘patriot’ in the liberal mood of the last 30 years sounded like a synonym for such words as ‘marginal’, ‘obscurantist’, or even ‘right-wing’, ‘conservative’. Look at the value that the concept of patriotism has acquired over the last 30 years of liberal reforms. This word from proud, courageous, which really matches the great feats that Prigozhin talked about, comparable to the rows of graves of people who gave their lives in the name of higher ideals and values, has turned into a derogatory concept, describing ‘losers’, ‘angry xenophobes’, ‘passive majority’. And I think this return to patriotism of its original high – deadly! – meaning is a completely new dimension of life. That’s what Yevgeny Prigozhin is talking about. That’s what this war teaches us. And if that’s the case, in my opinion, there can be no ambiguous attitude towards the values of Russia, tradition, patriotism, love for the Motherland. If a person grimaces at the word ‘patriotism’ or even if he says the right things, but his eyes are full of irony or arrogance towards our war, our heroes, Wagner, militiamen, regular and mobilised warriors who are fighting there, towards the new territories, the Russian state, towards our president, we must be simply intolerant. We must be intolerant when people allow themselves not just direct attacks, insults, mockery, but even ambiguity in relation to such sacred things as the church, the state, the people, the army, the heroes, the fighters. In response to this ambiguity, we must be ready to act seriously at once because this is the same as desecration of the graves of heroes, this is spitting on our sanctity.

After victory, we can discuss a lot: did we start correctly? Who’s right and who’s to blame? Did we start in time? Did we fight well? But while victory is not yet here, another ethic must be instilled in society, and instilled immediately, without delay. It will have to align people’s behaviour with the scenes of the burials of our soldiers. In this case, from the PMC Wagner. Prigozhin sees this every day: here a person doesn’t dodge bullets and dies; a person doesn’t leave under fire, doesn’t abandon his trenches, and dies. And for Prigozhin, these are not metaphors, not some retelling of the events of World War Two – this is what he sees right now and what he can physically touch, feel. He can feel in his palms this value for which his brothers, friends, comrades have just given their lives. And when we meet some blogger, some ‘non-warmonger’, some sceptical liberal or joker, cynic, politician or commentator, who questions all this, mocks or habitually, with the same cynicism with which he did it before, talks about the confrontation of factions in the Kremlin, speculating that certain people stand behind Prigozhin and others behind his opponents, we must be intolerant. Go to the front and only then write on Telegram. When they try to reduce everything to some household intrigues, to some clans, to politics, they demean every fallen soldier in this holy war. Let them tell the soldiers, the disabled, those coming back from the war, which groups are really feuding with each other. Comments of this kind are immoral. I would simply apply certain sanctions against them. If a person has allowed himself to respond arrogantly and cynically about our heroes, then the appropriate authorities identify such a person and have a preventive conversation with him. If it happens again, a more serious measure is applied. After all, we have wonderful methods of calm peaceful persuasion. That’s the way it should be.

In my opinion, a loose, cynical, unconstrained manner of describing what’s happening in the Special Military Operation must simply be excluded in our society. Not only in official channels but also in private networks. People do not have the right to do this in front of these rows of graves, in front of this very act of death.

We are losing sight of what a person who stares death in the face experiences. This is a very serious matter, and it changes everything – both in the person who goes through it, and in the person who loses friends and relatives, and in the person who is nearby, and in the person who simply understands what it is. We must not turn away from the harsh face of war, because it is a path to awakening, to the moral revival and purification of our society. I believe that cynicism and irony regarding the war and its heroes should be excluded. We should be intolerant of this, and if we encounter cynical, loose, vulgar comments regarding our holy war, we should react; we should be intolerant of those who raise their hand against our sacred things, who insult them.

Look, see how Muslims react when someone burns the Quran. They rise as a whole country and are ready to make harsh decisions even at the level of international relations. But regarding our holy war, our state, our power, our heroes, our church, see how many people display cynicism, a debauched irony, a haughty tone…

They are convinced that they need to be ‘liberated’, ‘fear nothing’, and freely insult everyone and everything that comes across. I am not advocating such harsh measures as lynching; everything should be within the law. But our society’s intolerance to rudeness and insult of our sacred things – and today this war is our sacred thing – that’s what we should be prepared for. And this is a matter not only of law enforcement agencies, although of them too. It’s a matter of conscience, responsibility, the awakening of every single person. Regarding journalists and people of culture, education, we must be ruthless.

G: Alexander Gelevich, I saw a table on your Telegram channel that outlines Russia and the collective West, NATO. Here is a chessboard, that is, a division into parties of immediate defeat (liberals), delayed defeat (fifth column), victory (patriots) – this is about Russia. The collective West – the party of immediate victory – is MI6, neocons; the party of delayed victory – Biden and the Democratic Party; and the party of indifference – this is Trump and the Republicans. Can you explain how everything can move on this board? We have 10 minutes, let’s try to fit it in.

D: I discussed this scheme with some of my close high-ranking friends. They told me: in principle, as always, you clearly describe what our responsible and serious decision-making center is dealing with. That’s how we see the situation. This fully corresponds to the picture with which really serious institutions in Russia are dealing with.

What’s important here? When we say ‘collective West’, we often overlook these three macrofigures of the black pieces, i.e., three decision-making centers.

Of course, today in the US, those who are indifferent to Russia – such as Trump, Trumpists, Tucker Carlson – are in the minority. We don’t need to consider them particularly now, but they exist, and as we move towards the elections, the influence of this party of indifference will increasingly grow. They will be making more and more claims to Biden purely on internal political grounds: why did he spend so much money on Ukraine? Why are there no bright results from the Ukrainians themselves? Why has he brought the world to the brink of nuclear war? And Biden will have to answer to this party of indifference. Besides, apart from Biden himself, who is, of course, personally responsible for this war, there are even more radical forces. I called them the ‘party of immediate victory’ of the West. They are the ones pushing for ruthless escalation: they are behind all the attacks that we are talking about and discussing today. They bet on the most brutal and wild terrorists, such as Kirill Budanov. They are convinced that the possibility of a nuclear strike by Russia is a bluff. They don’t believe in Putin, in his ideological component. They do not believe in his commitment to Russian civilization. They are extremely cynical and believe that Russia can now be finished. From their point of view, and in general from the point of view of the West, Russia lost. They believe that we lost since the ‘second army in the world’ cannot cope with the ‘twenty-second army in the world’. In any case, they believe that we have lost and we need to be finished off. At the same time, the decisions of the two parties – the ‘immediate victory of the West’ and the ‘delayed victory of the West’ often diverge: the ‘party of immediate victory’ blows up gas pipelines, and the ‘party of delayed victory’ says that the Ukrainians did it. The ‘party of immediate victory’ through its conductors, such as Kirill Budanov and other most radical figures in Ukraine, commits terrorist acts, and the ‘party of delayed victory’ says, ‘The Ukrainians did it without our knowledge.’ The entire picture of the positions of Western analysts fits completely into these three figures.

When we move on to our own, to the white, the picture becomes alarming. It turns out that of the three white pieces, only one is truly white – it’s the party of victory. And the rest, seemingly on our side, either agree to immediate surrender, like many oligarchs, Westernised liberals who have openly spoken out against this war (such figures can no longer be considered ‘white pieces’, they are simply repainted or slightly tinted black), or – the most ominous – the ‘party of delayed defeat’. This position is characteristic in our society, primarily in the elite, for those who understand that under any circumstances this war cannot be ended, especially since the same black figure of the ‘party of total immediate victory’ of the West will not give us any chances but is waiting for any opportunity to make peace as soon as such an opportunity presents itself. They are the ones holding back our will to fight to victory, to fight in earnest, as is proper in war, responding to all blows with symmetrical actions and attacks. This Russian ‘party of delayed defeat’, the sixth column, is the most dangerous.

It seems to me that the conflict that is brewing in our society between patriots, front-line people, volunteers, Wagner and the decision-making center in Russia is related precisely to the contradiction between our ‘party of victory’ and the ‘party of delayed defeat’. After all, the ‘party of victory’ insists that we use all forces, all resources for victory, understanding that no compromise is possible. And among our elite, and we constantly see these people, there are those who do everything possible to restrain and slow down our progress.

Prigozhin constantly speaks about them. On the Tsargrad website, ratings of Russophobes are published from time to time. We are beginning to clearly identify this ‘party of delayed defeat’, to know its representatives by name. Yes, today they are not able to oppose the Special Military Operation as a whole or to challenge Putin directly. But they still hope, despite everything, to negotiate with the West.

All six figures can line up in complex structures, enter into alliances and interactions, fight each other.

I do not take the Ukrainians themselves, among the decision-making centers there are none at all. Ukraine in this situation is just territories – this is a chessboard. But, there are three decision-making centres on that side and three decision-making centres on our side, with all the paradoxes and contradictions.

Both Russia and the USA are now entering a new electoral cycle, and the behaviour of these six figures, their ratios, their alliances, their agreements with each other, their mutual conflicts, information exchanges, disinformation, their promises to each other, the deals they make and many other factors – all this predetermines the complexity of the geopolitical picture that we see in Ukraine.

Some may find a scheme of six figures overly simplistic. But imagine that out of three figures on one side and three on the other, where each has different goals, uses different methods, is guided by different evaluations of the overall picture, each is a will center, a sort of subject. And depending on the ratio of all factors, proportions, power, strength, determination, intelligence, a complex system is built, which translates into the course of our war.

After all, everyone wants to understand what is happening, who is making decisions, in what contexts.
If you equip this general scheme with details, it can easily turn into a serious report with a lot of additional analytical materials, details, lists of presumed personalities, etc. It is important to grasp everything together, and geopolitics helps to grasp the overall picture. And you can detail everything to any degree. This is a matter of technique.

G: Alexander Gelyevich, thank you for this conversation and for this explanation. On the line with us was the prominent Russian philosopher and thinker, Alexander Dugin. And as per my explanation, vision, this ‘party of victory’ we are talking about – this is indeed our entire nation, right here, there are representatives of the deep Russian state, and you yourself see who is opposing us, from literally all sides. This is not even a pawn, probably, this is the king who is on the board, but how they are trying to knock him down from all sides.